Are we actually getting anywhere?

[Jonatan]

What is enlightenment? - It seems this word has lost all meaning because it is so commonly used.

Perhaps it is more straightforward to ask, what is freedom?

Doesn't freedom imply no limits? Something limitless which is free to act outside of any bounds?

So then one can ask, are we free?

There can't be any gray zone here, either we are, or we are not. Obviously such a thing as "reasonably free" is a compromise made by something which highest purpose is something other than absolute freedom.

Are you free, really? Or are you living in a conditioned state of mind? - The question is not how far your intellectual understanding goes pertaining the topic of freedom. But how your life is actually being lived, day to day, is it a life without limits and bounds? Or is it limited by your past, by your thoughts, by your beliefs?

And if the latter is the case, where does more spiritual knowledge, understanding and insight get us? Are we actually moving towards absolute freedom or staying in the "relative" freedom we have intellectually created?

[CaterpillarWoman]

Perhaps it is more straightforward to ask, what is freedom?

Robert M. Pirsig, in his classic "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", observed that:

'...in the final analysis "freedom" is a purely negative goal. It just says something is bad.'

Are you free, really? Or are you living in a conditioned state of mind?

Yes, I just went through this one, myself. Is there really such a thing as "free will" or is it all just reaction to circumstances based on your own internal programming?

Are we actually moving towards absolute freedom or staying in the "relative" freedom we have intellectually created?

Well, that's the question, isn't it? And how can you know? Really KNOW? I guess you just have to keep going until you get to the bottom of the bottomless pit to find out...

[Jonatan]

Are we actually moving towards absolute freedom or staying in the "relative" freedom we have intellectually created?

Well, that's the question, isn't it? And how can you know? Really KNOW?

Lets stay with this.

How can we REALLY know?

Well first we must observe right? Not just look and come to a comfortable conclusion, but to really observe. If comfort is a higher priority than real observation then nothing can be done.

So are we willing to really look? - This seems to be a good starting point.

Assuming that we are willing to look at things as they really are, right now...

How is life being lived right this moment? Is there limitation by conditioning, thought, reactions or not?

Can we begin with answering this simple question?

[Parthon]

Enlightenment is an illusion. It doesn't really exist. It's just a trick put forth by all these Masters in order to get money off you.

Same with freedom, it's an illusion too. When 'The Man' has you chase freedom, he can then manipulate you into doing what he wants you to do. It's all false.

[Jonatan]

Enlightenment is an illusion. It doesn't really exist. It's just a trick put forth by all these Masters in order to get money off you.

Same with freedom, it's an illusion too. When 'The Man' has you chase freedom, he can then manipulate you into doing what he wants you to do. It's all false.

Ok, can we agree on something which is not false?

The human being is destroying itself.

Do you agree?

[scarface]

Many questions have implications in themselfes. And when those implications are investigated the question can many times automatically disspaear, or seem irrelevant.

what is freedom?

This question implies there also that bondage/imprisonment exists. Like it's possible not to be free, but bound. Does it realy exist, or is it a (mind made) make up?

Doesn't freedom imply no limits?

This question implies that limits realy exists. Do they realy exist, or are they make ups?

Something limitless which is free to act outside of any bounds?

This question implies that boundries realy exists. Do they realy exist, or are they make ups?

The question is not how far your intellectual understanding goes pertaining the topic of freedom. But how your life is actually being lived, day to day, is it a life without limits and bounds? Or is it limited by your past, by your thoughts, by your beliefs?

For myself seeing that the mind made limits and bounds for what they realy are, is enough. They do arise within me, but I can't see them as something real. To me it's mind made, and that is so. They appear and I see it appear, but I am not moved by them. I feel like I am that which witnesses whatever arises, but that what witnesses it is not it nor can it be moved by it. It's just not possible ime.

My 2 cents

[CaterpillarWoman]

The more I considered this, the more I kept coming back to "I don't know". That "not knowing" is actually a good thing. It's not ignorance, but admission that I simply do not know, and possibly cannot know. The more I know, the more I know that I don't know, and the more "right" it seems to know that I don't know. (I, in this case, being my material mind/self.)

As George Harrison sang, "The further one travels, the less one knows, the less one really knows." That journey into the "unknown" (that is, where you don't know, and know that you don't know) is essential and surprisingly fulfilling.

[Jonatan]

For myself seeing that the mind made limits and bounds for what they realy are, is enough. They do arise within me, but I can't see them as something real. To me it's mind made, and that is so. They appear and I see it appear, but I am not moved by them. I feel like I am that which witnesses whatever arises, but that what witnesses it is not it nor can it be moved by it. It's just not possible ime.

With respect, you are not answering the question.

But how your life is actually being lived, day to day, is it a life without limits and bounds? Or is it limited by your past, by your thoughts, by your beliefs?

Either your life is affected by your past, your thoughts and beliefs or it is not, which is it? I'm not asking what you think of these things when you look at them and go to a "witness" state of mind, but in your actual life, daily, are you affected by these things or not, it's a simple question, no tricky answers, yes or no?

[Jonatan]

The more I considered this, the more I kept coming back to "I don't know". That "not knowing" is actually a good thing. It's not ignorance, but admission that I simply do not know, and possibly cannot know. The more I know, the more I know that I don't know, and the more "right" it seems to know that I don't know. (I, in this case, being my material mind/self.)

I'm suggesting that we CAN know, but we don't want to because it's not comfortable to look. It might actually be outright painful.

I'm suggesting that man is living in a conditioned existence and it is not possible to be free from it by seeking refuge in a "witnessing" state of mind from where it all seems irrelevant. But one has to start by seeing the simple fact that we are ALL conditioned, we ALL have a "me" operating in us which maintains belief in itself by any means, even by pretending that it has "transcended" itself to a place where nothing can really affect it anymore.

[CaterpillarWoman]

I'm suggesting that we CAN know, but we don't want to because it's not comfortable to look. It might actually be outright painful.

I've indulged in years and years of painful looking, and in looking at things that were/are painful. I'm no stranger to that.

I think you and I may be talking about entirely different things.

I'm suggesting that man is living in a conditioned existence and it is not possible to be free from it by seeking refuge in a "witnessing" state of mind from where it all seems irrelevant.

Ah. So you perceive that non-attachment is some sort of seeking of refuge? Interesting. But having lived the life I have and having had the experiences I've had, I have to disagree that detachement is any sort of refuge. It DOES offer some relief from the constant gnawing and worrying and complaining of the ego, yes, but that's just a pleasant side effect of it. A state of balanced detachment is infinitely richer and more significant than just a kind of mental refuge.

But one has to start by seeing the simple fact that we are ALL conditioned, we ALL have a "me" operating in us which maintains belief in itself by any means

That's true. We do.

even by pretending that it has "transcended" itself to a place where nothing can really affect it anymore.

Maybe. But are you really so confident in your own beliefs that you say for sure that it's all "pretending" and that there is no such thing as actual transcendence?

Is it your contention that transcendence is actually not possible, and that it's all imagined?