Jonatan wrote:Perhaps it is more straightforward to ask, what is freedom?
Jonatan wrote:Are you free, really? Or are you living in a conditioned state of mind?
Jonatan wrote:Are we actually moving towards absolute freedom or staying in the "relative" freedom we have intellectually created?
CaterpillarWoman wrote:Jonatan wrote:Are we actually moving towards absolute freedom or staying in the "relative" freedom we have intellectually created?
Well, that's the question, isn't it? And how can you know? Really KNOW?
Parthon wrote:Enlightenment is an illusion. It doesn't really exist. It's just a trick put forth by all these Masters in order to get money off you.
Same with freedom, it's an illusion too. When 'The Man' has you chase freedom, he can then manipulate you into doing what he wants you to do. It's all false.
Jonatan wrote:what is freedom?
Jonatan wrote:Doesn't freedom imply no limits?
Jonatan wrote:Something limitless which is free to act outside of any bounds?
Jonatan wrote:The question is not how far your intellectual understanding goes pertaining the topic of freedom. But how your life is actually being lived, day to day, is it a life without limits and bounds? Or is it limited by your past, by your thoughts, by your beliefs?
scarface wrote:For myself seeing that the mind made limits and bounds for what they realy are, is enough. They do arise within me, but I can't see them as something real. To me it's mind made, and that is so. They appear and I see it appear, but I am not moved by them. I feel like I am that which witnesses whatever arises, but that what witnesses it is not it nor can it be moved by it. It's just not possible ime.
CaterpillarWoman wrote:The more I considered this, the more I kept coming back to "I don't know". That "not knowing" is actually a good thing. It's not ignorance, but admission that I simply do not know, and possibly cannot know. The more I know, the more I know that I don't know, and the more "right" it seems to know that I don't know. (I, in this case, being my material mind/self.)
Jonatan wrote:I'm suggesting that we CAN know, but we don't want to because it's not comfortable to look. It might actually be outright painful.
Jonatan wrote:I'm suggesting that man is living in a conditioned existence and it is not possible to be free from it by seeking refuge in a "witnessing" state of mind from where it all seems irrelevant.
Jonatan wrote:But one has to start by seeing the simple fact that we are ALL conditioned, we ALL have a "me" operating in us which maintains belief in itself by any means
Jonatan wrote:even by pretending that it has "transcended" itself to a place where nothing can really affect it anymore.
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