Are we actually getting anywhere?

[Parthon]

What I'm saying is that you're not contributing, you're wasting your energy on assumptions.

In reality, I'm just not contributing in the right way for you Jon. For that reason I will leave the discussion. I make no assumptions, I just offer observations.

[Jonatan]

Hi Scarface,

To rephrase.. What I'm suggesting is a different way of living where thought is not the primary motivator. To live without thought, not just now and then, but every minute of every day.

You say.. "it would be wonderful if one could go or be in such a state any time one wants to."

I think it's important to realize that living in such a state means giving up the control we normally percieve ourselves to have, choosing one experience over the other has to end. If we decide that something is too painful or uncomfortable, that will move us away from action without thought.

Here's another statement which is worth considering.

Thought is the effect of inaction. When one chooses not to act, thought follows.

[Lee]

Jonatan- “What I'm suggesting is a different way of living where thought is not the primary motivator. To live without thought, not just now and then, but every minute of every day.”

Every word written comes from thought. What you wrote is a thought. It is a thought about not having thought.

The only way to live without thought every minute of every day is to physically die, or brain death, or coma.

Thoughts are here to stay. And they are no problem. The problem is identification with thought. No thought happens- but not in a concrete “nevermore” way.

You seem to be identified with not having any thoughts. This is a thought that you are identifying with. It is irony, which is also thought. If no thought is your goal, allow Being to Be. Take the energy of your “no thoughts” thought and delve into Being. This naturally removes thought- for a while. When thought returns, it is just thought- thoughts- no you in them.

Ariel has just written a blog on Being. Might check it out.

[Jonatan]

Every word written comes from thought. What you wrote is a thought. It is a thought about not having thought.

This is your limited experience. I'm saying it's possible to live in a state where thought is secondary and purely practical.

The only way to live without thought every minute of every day is to physically die, or brain death, or coma

Again, just because you don't have the capacity to see something does not mean it's not possible. I spend hours with practically no thought every day, it's simply a matter of directing energy into action. But to do this one must first be willing to face everything which life might throw at you without flinching, when you flinch, you think, and when you think you start a never ending process.

Thoughts are here to stay. And they are no problem. The problem is identification with thought. No thought happens- but not in a concrete “nevermore” way.

What you are expressing is the result of a thought process reaching a conclusion based on viewing itself. Of course thought would assert that it's here to stay and it's not a problem. I'm saying that's bullcrap.

You seem to be identified with not having any thoughts.

You seem to be very keen on making assumptions and giving advice, how about dropping the belief that you know something which I don't and approach what I'm saying with an open mind?

This statement again feels relevant:

Thought is the effect of inaction. When one chooses not to act, thought follows.

[Ariel]

Wait, so why exactly is the complete cessation of thought even desirable or necessary?

[Jonatan]

Wait, so why exactly is the complete cessation of thought even desirable or necessary?

Because thought is killing the human being.

[Ariel]

Reality is already here, regardless of if the mind is talkative or silent.

If the mind is not you, who cares what it's saying? Waking up is not about controlling everything and changing everything around so that it no longer disturbs you, and this includes thinking positive thoughts or silencing the mind. Rather, it's simply no longer identifying with that which you are not and perceiving things the way they actually are. It's simply not getting caught in the phenomena of the world.

It may certainly be easier, particularly at first, to be in peace when things are quiet and to hear silence when the ambient noise is low, but that doesn't mean you have to shut down any aspects of the world in order to fully be who you are.

The following quote sums it up beautifully:

“The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life.” -Open Secret by Wei Wu Wei

I would include thought in the second half. Ceasing to be (identified with) the thinker while practical thinking continues to serve its function in creation moment-to-moment.

It is very possible to have enlightened thoughts, thoughts that arise from your essence rather than from the disconnected fearful ego. They're thoughts that are fully in alignment with who you are, rather than egoic thoughts that are disconnected from your essence.

[Ariel]

Because thought is killing the human being.

Negative, disconnected, ego-sponsored thoughts based in fear kill human beings.

Remember, thoughts are creative! Like a hammer, they can create or destroy depending on how they're used!

[Jonatan]

Ariel, you are speaking of two fundamentally different things with very similar words.

Can we agree on that there is an intelligence which is way beyond any individuals capacity to comprehend, and that this intelligence is capable of acting through the human body?

And that the human being has the capacity for logical thought and remembrance.

And that these two things are fundamentally different.

Given that we can agree on the above definitions...

What I'm saying is that we turn to our logical thought when the reality which intelligence is presenting us with seems too intense/big to face. Often because fully allowing intelligence through might mean radical changes in how ones life would be lived, something we have strong resistance against.

Living without thought would therefor mean to live in full synchronization with whatever reality was being presented by intelligence. Not flinching in the face of god.

[Jonatan]

I would include thought in the second half. Ceasing to be (identified with) the thinker while practical thinking continues to serve its function in creation moment-to-moment.

What you write here is a source of major confusion and division.

What part of you is it which is ceasing to be identified with the thinker? There is the division between the "me" and the "observer" which no longer identifies with the "me". Then this observer continues to analyze and reflect over the "me". This leads to a division which fuels a never ending thought process where one can theorize about the "me" and how to fix it.

Let me put it this way. Saying that one has "ceased to be identified with the thinker" is the result of THINKING about a reality which intelligence has put forward. Living without thought is fully facing the same reality and taking the energy which is going into THINKING and allowing it to simply ACT through you.

You are the observed. You are the "me". The thinking process which sees that it is not identified with the "me" IS the "me". More of the same old stuff in new fancy clothes.

The words used in the sentence "Ceasing to be identified with the thinker" betray themselves. There is obviously still some entity which is relating to the thinker and no longer identifying with it, now identification is taking place with the entity which is "beyond" the thinker. I'm saying this line of reasoning and explaining will never lead anywhere because it is just another thought process.

To repeat something a very wise person said to me: "There is in truth nothing much to think about, it really is very speculative what we do with our thinking, it lacks the spark of intelligence and action."