Are we actually getting anywhere?

[scarface]

Hi, Jonatan to answer you.

is it limited by your past, by your thoughts, by your beliefs?

Limited I wouldn't say so much, conditioned and genetically programmed yes. So yes the actions that my body performs are determined largely by it's conditioning and genetical programming. But I don't see myself as the body.

So if "you" can admit that "you" are conditioned does everything else you said really matter?

Anything I say doesn't really matter anything imo to begin with, period. It has has only possible value for others imo, up to the level of whether it strikes a cord within someone, which through that persons personaal internal investigation could possibly lead to something for that person. I also see no difference (in value or level) in persons that do or don't agree. But in itself whatever I say has imo no value.
Imo conditioning is happening in the brain/mind. And the brain/mind is not the ego imo. So, also imo the ego is not conditioned nor can it be conditioned. And if one can at all call something a "me" or "you", imo it's the ego. Therefore imo conditioning is of the brain/mind which is part of the body, and genes are also part of the body. That's my personal opinion.

To be clear, if we are conditioned, doesn't this mean that there is a "me" active in us which is doing whatever it can to survive, meaning imposing reactive behaviour on the physical body and so on...

The "me"(the ego) in my personal concept is not conditioned nor can it receive conditioning, but there is a "me"(ego) present. Ego in my concept just means the sense "I am", like in: "I am here present in this body and view the world through this body. Therefore the ego imo just means the identification with this body (and therefore not with your body or the chair I sit on)". That's all the ego means to me, and nothing more or extra to it. You say "that imposing reactive behaviour on the physical body and so on". Imo the me/ego has no power, no doership nor volition, so imo it can't impose reactive behaviour on the physical body. Also Imo it can't do anything at all, so it also can't do "survival" nor do the action of "committing suicide" on itself.

And if this is the case, what is actually saying "this "me" isn't who I am"?

All I said it that I am not body. But I am not the ego either imo. Because there is something aware of that imo and ime, and what is that even observed the ego? I had no answer what that was, but my feeling says that which can be witnessed can't be me ultimately. But this is a concept yes, and concepts are always up for discussion. I would only use concepts (if I feel the need for concept(s)) if I find I need one on a certain subject. And would suggest to people to use the concept that works best for you, and makes you more happy/peaceful. If my concept can't be accepted or one has a feeling it doesn't or can't help, I would suggest to not use it and use another one if one needs a concept about something.
Ultimately imo no concepts are needed as I noticed, because one is just anchored in peace and silence. And when there is peace there are no (internal) problems/suffering, and when there are no (internal) problems/suffering there is no need for concepts any longer. At least that is my experience. I don't need concepts anymore nor does it have much importance to me, but if one asks I still have some I concluded on my own experiences.

Isn't this simply the "me" who is using the perspective of nothingness or intelligence as I prefer to call it, to AVOID fully facing the consequences of fully living from this intelligent force which is available?

This question is to difficult formulated for me, I don't understand what the question means.

Consequences which would ultimately mean that the "me" is completely destroyed without compromise. Wouldn't it say pretty much ANYTHING to avoid this? Even using the capacity to "view" its own destruction to further avoid this? - Ie. saying that "I'm not really this "me" or ego, I've seen that and I know that. And because I know this I don't have to do anything about the fact that I'm still here".

For myself there is no intention or want for the ego/me to be destroyed/killed. for me the only thing that the me/ego had to get rid of, to start experiencing internal peace/happiness was the ego’s sense of personal doership/free will, the sense that it has the power and/or authority to do(action) something.
All I cared about was being/experiencing peace/happiness and when I totally got rid of my (the ego's) sense of personal doership, I was anchored in peace/happiness. About philosophy/religion/what other guru's say is truth or truth at all, I didn't nor do I care much. I wanted to be anchored in internal peace/happiness, "truth"
or being "right" or "wrong" I never cared for. To be honest all I ever cared for was my personal (internal) happiness/peace. Losing the sense of personal doership, luckily did that for me, but I am not sure it would also do/bring that to someone else if they(their ego) lost that sense.

My 3rd 2 cents, Bye Scarface.

[Jonatan]

Imo conditioning is happening in the brain/mind

Since we don't seem to share the same words lets try and narrow this down.

What I mean by conditioning is our past experience, our memories, our beliefs. Based on these things we make choices which may seem "free" but are in fact only free within certain conditions determined by our past experience, our memories, our beliefs.

As long as our "normal" and everyday life is lived from this state of conditioning we are by definition not free, we are conditioned.

This is my starting point, and this is what concerns me. I don't see the point in opinions or conceptual explanations, these are endless. If we can observe facts together this will create a common ground from where we can move together.

Can you observe the fact that we are living from a conditioned state of being?

[scarface]

Imo conditioning is happening in the brain/mind

Since we don't seem to share the same words lets try and narrow this down.

What I mean by conditioning is our past experience, our memories, our beliefs. Based on these things we make choices which may seem "free" but are in fact only free within certain conditions determined by our past experience, our memories, our beliefs.

As long as our "normal" and everyday life is lived from this state of conditioning we are by definition not free, we are conditioned.

This is my starting point, and this is what concerns me. I don't see the point in opinions or conceptual explanations, these are endless. If we can observe facts together this will create a common ground from where we can move together.

Can you observe the fact that we are living from a conditioned state of being?

For me the starting point should then be stated a little differently, I am not playing on words but it's because it's essential (core matter) to me. A starting point/statement that could allure to "we are living our lives" (could imply free wil/personal doership) I couldn't accept (from my personal concepts/believes) as
I can start from:
"Our life is being lived. And most times our actions in life are based on conditioning and genes."

[Parthon]

Jonatan: You are trying to logic your way out of this, and it's just not going to work. You replied to my answers with a very stoic demeanor, one which I can respect, but ultimately which will not lead you to the result you want.

You will have to look within for your own answers, and for that you will have to ask the right question.

The question was never "Is freedom real?" but "How can I be freedom?"

As for your assessment of me, I'm not that. To you, I am an opinion, a judgement, from your own mind on who I appear to be. I am more of the same of what is keeping you trapped. Words on a screen you attribute with an identity that doesn't even exist. Whatever you think I am, I am not that.

[Jonatan]

Scarface:
If that is our starting point, then what I'm saying is that one can be free from that conditioning, totally.

Parthon:
You're wasting your energy on stupid arguments and assumptions.

[scarface]

I can start from:
"Our life is being lived. And most times our actions in life are based on conditioning and genes."

If that is our starting point, then what I'm saying is that one can be free from that conditioning, totally.

How did you from this starting point, come to that conclusion? What was your thinking process that lead you to this conclusion?

To share my current view. Genes, I can't be free from nor do remember (conciously) chosing it. Conditioning as a child, depeneded largely upon the type of parents, culture, tv and so on. I can't remember (conciously) chosing these things as a child. I've gotten past, or rid of conditioning I received as a child. So that is possible.
Conditioning as an adult, still depends largely on culture, scial group and especially the TV in most cases I think. But yeah conditioning is going on all the time I noticed. So conditioning is there.
But how to be free from it? It's there, I notice, and I can change conditioning with new fresh conditioning. But it's still conditioning imo. I mean me talking to you, telling what I think is conditioning if you would change you view, and visa versa. The only way I think one can be free from it, is to realize it's there, see/look/observe it when in action, and realize/know you are not it.

[Parthon]

Parthon:
You're wasting your energy on stupid arguments and assumptions.

Yeah, it's disappointing. I thought this community was far more open minded.

[Jonatan]

I can start from:
"Our life is being lived. And most times our actions in life are based on conditioning and genes."

If that is our starting point, then what I'm saying is that one can be free from that conditioning, totally.

How did you from this starting point, come to that conclusion? What was your thinking process that lead you to this conclusion?

It's an assertion by me, it seems to be the only reasonable way to live. Until someone can show me that it's not possible I will live by that statement and invest every bit of energy I have towards making it real.

It's the basis for moving forward, that we can be free from conditioned living.

You ask how. Certainly we can see conditioning in action and try to solve it through thinking about it. But this is a waste of energy. I'm suggesting a different way of living where thought has no part at all.

I'm suggesting a different way of living where thought, has no part at all.

Different way of living, where thought, has no part at all.

Thought, has no part, at all.

And to live from this state where there is no thought, is the challenge.

[Jonatan]

Parthon:
You're wasting your energy on stupid arguments and assumptions.

Yeah, it's disappointing. I thought this community was far more open minded.

What I'm saying is that you're not contributing, you're wasting your energy on assumptions.

[scarface]

I'm suggesting a different way of living where thought has no part at all.

Could you explain further (or type down in different words), what you mean by "Has no part at all". Maybe it's an common english expression that I'm missing here, but I'll forgive myself for not knowing it since english is not my first language.
Do you mean by it, that there are no thoughts comming up?

And to live from this state where there is no thought, is the challenge.

The times I remember when I was sitting or doing whatever and there was silense or even better said no/absense of thoughts (arising), those were happy/peacefull moments for sure for me. When having no thoughts peace and happiness seem to be the only thing remaining, I agree. I think it would be wonderfull (by no doubt) also, if one could go or be in such a state any time one wants to.